[advice] Trying to balance my personal kinks with a healthy well-adjusted society, and a proposal; feedback? (will contain explicit sexual discussion)

[Thanos6]

My apologies if this is the wrong sub-forum for this; it seemed like it could have gone in any of several.

So, one of my big kinks involves stuff in public.  Exhibitionism, sex in public, stuff like that.  And I think it'd be really fun (for me personally; not generalizing here!) to be groped in public by random strangers, and likewise to grope random strangers in return. (Some of you may remember be talking about this over in the main DNL site, but it was--shall we say--suggested that over here may be a better place to discuss it)

Of course, I run into the problem that the vast majority of people disagree with me.  They do not want to be randomly groped in public, and as such I would never dream of doing so to them.  Hell, even if 98% of the population DID want it, I still wouldn't do it because I might end up groping someone who didn't want it, and the last thing I'd want to do is give someone a sexual experience they'd dislike.  And as much as I would enjoy it (or at least I think I'd enjoy, since it hasn't happened yet, but at the very least I want to test the hypothesis), anyone who'd randomly do it to me without knowing that I want it is, er, Not A Pleasant Person.

My first idea was to just sell shirts that say PLEASE GROPE ME, I MEAN IT, maybe with smaller text reading HONESTLY, I WON'T CALL THE COPS, but that's probably unworkable.

So I have another idea to try and help me and those like me without causing problems for those who don't want what we want.  I'd appreciate some feedback on it and see if there's any gaping flaws I've failed to spot:

Hold a private event.  At the door are a list of rules all participants must read and sign.  Once they have done so, they are allowed inside and given a hat. What sort of hat doesn't matter, as long as it's flashy and is easy to remove.

The hat, in fact, is the key to the entire thing.  While you are inside, as long as you are wearing the hat, you are consenting to being groped or spanked or rubbed up against or otherwise touched in a non-penetrative fashion by anyone and everyone else who is there.

Clothing is optional.  Sexual activities beyond groping/spanking/rubbing up against/etc. can be negotiated, but must take place there in front of all other attendees so as to prevent any potential abuse in private quarters.  For any of this extra activity, all "No"s must be respected; failure to do so will result in immediate ejection and, if the victim wishes, notification of law enforcement.

If you're getting out of the mood to be groped, spanked, or rubbed up against or etc., remove the hat.  This is a signal that you are completely off-limits and do not wish to engage in any kind of sexual activity at this time.  Attempting to grope, spank, or rub up against someone without a hat will result in immediate ejection and, if the victim wishes, notification of law enforcement.

If you are not wearing the hat, you are not allowed to grope, spank, or rub up against or etc. someone else, either; you must put the hat back on first (this is also true of any other sexual activity) to either "give" or "receive."  While you are wearing the hat, you may not decline any gropes, spanks, being rubbed up against, or etc.  If you accept them from person A but turn them down from person B, while you are wearing the hat, this will result in immediate ejection.

Security will be on-scene to enforce these rules and generally make sure everything stays fun and consensual.  In order to aid in staying objective, security officers will not be allowed to join in the play; there will be a special after-party dedicated to taking care of their needs and giving them an enjoyable time.

So, how does all this sound?  Anything I've overlooked?

(Please, nothing along the lines of "you're a creepy pervert.")

[reboot]

What do you do if someone did not get the memo and wears a hat to the party, but does not want to be groped? Where are you going to advertise this event? Are you OK with both men and women groping you?

[Enail]

I think private events are the right idea, I doubt the shirt would do much, who really looks at peoples' shirts? Have you looked into what's out there already? I haven't specifically seen such things, but wouldn't be surprised if there's rooms for that at some fetish/kink events. Or at least you might be able to dig up a person or two who's organized such a thing before who could advise you on the details.

@Reboot, I think you could solve the issue of unaware people by having someone at the door to check that each entrant knows the rules.

[reboot]

Good point, enail. I think there would also have to be a safe word/signal if someone needs a break or if things get pushed too far.

I agree that trying to organize through an existing group might be a good idea.

[Thanos6]

What do you do if someone did not get the memo and wears a hat to the party, but does not want to be groped? Where are you going to advertise this event? Are you OK with both men and women groping you?

The entire point of the party is to be groped.  If you do not want to be groped, there is literally no reason to come to the party.

I was thinking advertising it on places like Fetlife, Craigslist, fetish-related Reddits and Tumblrs, etc.

And yes, I'm absolutely fine with being groped by any gender.

@Enail, yes, there will be someone at the door to ensure all attendees actually do read the rules.

[reboot]

Check. Now it is clear. Good call organizing through the kink community because they will get the whole concept of safe words and playing within rules

[eselle28]

From a consent point of view, I don't see anything at all objectionable about your private party idea. It seems like it has all the bases covered in terms of making sure everyone there knows that groping will be occurring and everyone knows the rules for groping and non-groping.

I see some potential issues from a practical point of view. You're going to need some friends who are up for attending the party. First, because you're going to need some guests there when the first kinkster or two or three shows up and doesn't know what to do. Second, so there are people there who are up for both running the door and watching activity to make sure no one is violating policy. Rather importantly, you're probably not going to be able to be one of them. Also importantly, they can't really just be people you've found online and don't have any personal connection to. You need people who are trustworthy and competent, and a promise of a sexy after-party with strangers might not be enough to appeal - hell, what happens if they show up and decide they're not very interested in that sort of party with anyone present, or if no one ends up showing for the thank you party afterward?

Honestly, I think this might be easier to achieve at a sex party run by others for a broader group of people - at least when it comes to the gropee part of the fantasy. I could see it being feasible to take along one friend to a sex party who spreads around the word that tonight you're anyone's to grope. If you want both parts at once, I think it might be wise to first make some connections in communities of people who are open to exhibitionism, voyuerism, and partner-sharing and then starting with a non-advertised private party or at least an advertised one with a guaranteed core. I suspect anything just promoted on FetLife and Craigslist is likely to end in disappointment.

[Thanos6]

You need people who are trustworthy and competent, and a promise of a sexy after-party with strangers might not be enough to appeal - hell, what happens if they show up and decide they're not very interested in that sort of party with anyone present, or if no one ends up showing for the thank you party afterward?

I was thinking to just hire people, like the security officers you would have at any normal party.  They get paid in money like any regular job, and if overseeing the party has gotten them horny, they are free to stay and have fun at the after party (with me servicing them all alone, if I have to, if no one else will help).  If not, they can leave and pick up their check just as they regularly would.

Honestly, I think this might be easier to achieve at a sex party run by others for a broader group of people - at least when it comes to the gropee part of the fantasy. I could see it being feasible to take along one friend to a sex party who spreads around the word that tonight you're anyone's to grope. If you want both parts at once, I think it might be wise to first make some connections in communities of people who are open to exhibitionism, voyuerism, and partner-sharing and then starting with a non-advertised private party or at least an advertised one with a guaranteed core.

That probably would be a good way to "get my feet wet" before I threw a "specially dedicated to mutually groping" party, yeah.

I suspect anything just promoted on FetLife and Craigslist is likely to end in disappointment.

In what way?  Bear in mind that despite all my crazy, insane kinks, I've never actually attended anything like this before, much less run one.

[eselle28]

You need people who are trustworthy and competent, and a promise of a sexy after-party with strangers might not be enough to appeal - hell, what happens if they show up and decide they're not very interested in that sort of party with anyone present, or if no one ends up showing for the thank you party afterward?

I was thinking to just hire people, like the security officers you would have at any normal party.  They get paid in money like any regular job, and if overseeing the party has gotten them horny, they are free to stay and have fun at the after party (with me servicing them all alone, if I have to, if no one else will help).  If not, they can leave and pick up their check just as they regularly would.

This is perhaps a possibility, but I would strongly recommend researching the following things:

- Is the type of party you plan on throwing legal in the area where you live? This isn't to pish posh about whether you should have a party that won't affect anyone other than you and the people who show up, but to point out that many security services won't be open to accepting that particular job if there's a possibility of a police raid. I suspect many will not be interested regardless due to the nature of the activities.
- How will you guarantee that the security personnel will be discreet? You may or may not care about this, but realistically speaking, any fetish party with more than a few guests is going to have some concerned with their employers or their children finding out about their sex lives.
- How will you instruct the security personnel as to consent norms in the fetish and BDSM communities? Presumably, many of them won't be knowledgeable about them in the way people with a personal interest might and will instead be bringing their own ideas about consent, and some might uncomfortable physically breaking up sexual activity. It's also possible you'll end up with people who are sex or kink negative who may end up handing things in a way that will shame your guests or ruin the vibe.

I strongly recommend against the following, like DO NOT DO THIS EVER:

- The fantasy about paid employees getting horny and deciding they want to be serviced by you after the party needs to go if you want to even consider putting this plan into action. It's all fine and good when it's something you're enjoying in your head, but in any real world situation, a security officer needs to be viewed as non-sexual and not someone you're even vaguely imagining might want sexual activity after the party. The situation you're proposing is already super fraught when it comes to the involvement of people who aren't involved in the fetish scene.

I would suggest this instead:

- Go to some sex parties and some BDSM events (whether or not that personally interests you) and watch how people (preferably not all part of the same one small community) handle security issues. Establish yourself as a part of those communities and build up a little social credit, and then ask people who run these events for a little advice on throwing your own party. I'll note I'm definitely not in that position - I'm just someone who's kind of good at poking holes in the practical aspect of things. Oh, and keep your skepticism tuned for people who don't seem very concerned about things like consent or security. Although I think this is your best resource, many kinky circles have their own problems, and you may find some people who claim bad things never happen so that sort of thing isn't needed in their group.

Honestly, I think this might be easier to achieve at a sex party run by others for a broader group of people - at least when it comes to the gropee part of the fantasy. I could see it being feasible to take along one friend to a sex party who spreads around the word that tonight you're anyone's to grope. If you want both parts at once, I think it might be wise to first make some connections in communities of people who are open to exhibitionism, voyuerism, and partner-sharing and then starting with a non-advertised private party or at least an advertised one with a guaranteed core.

That probably would be a good way to "get my feet wet" before I threw a "specially dedicated to mutually groping" party, yeah.

I would definitely suggest that, and before even that, going to some events just as someone who's there to watch a little and check out the scene and meet some people before you go actively searching for others to fulfill that particular fantasy.

I suspect anything just promoted on FetLife and Craigslist is likely to end in disappointment.

In what way?  Bear in mind that despite all my crazy, insane kinks, I've never actually attended anything like this before, much less run one.

Have you ever thrown a regular party or tried to drum up support for a brand new public social event? The most common pitfall is that you send out your invitations or post your announcements, hear from a ton of people who say they're interested, and then spend the evening alone because no one actually showed. Or two or three people show up, but not really people who gel with each other, and everyone just shuffles awkwardly for a bit and then leaves. Or one person who saw your ad shows up with twenty friends who didn't see it and don't care about the purpose of your party, all hoping that you have some booze or drugs for them to enjoy. That's just the regular stuff. In the case of what you're thinking about, you've got security and secrecy and consent involved.

This really isn't to throw a wet blanket over your fantasy. I think someone who wants to organize a knitting circle or a political protest faces at least some of the basic organizational challenges and would do well to get a sense of how things are organized and find a group of people who can be reasonably assured to turn up and support the host.

[Thanos6]

I strongly recommend against the following, like DO NOT DO THIS EVER:

- The fantasy about paid employees getting horny and deciding they want to be serviced by you after the party needs to go if you want to even consider putting this plan into action. It's all fine and good when it's something you're enjoying in your head, but in any real world situation, a security officer needs to be viewed as non-sexual and not someone you're even vaguely imagining might want sexual activity after the party.

Why not?  Non-rhetorical question, I'm honestly trying to understand.  I certainly see the problem with them wanting to take part when they're on the job, but I don't see what's wrong with them having fun after the main party's over and they're off the clock.

Go to some sex parties and some BDSM events (whether or not that personally interests you) and watch how people (preferably not all part of the same one small community) handle security issues. Establish yourself as a part of those communities and build up a little social credit, and then ask people who run these events for a little advice on throwing your own party. I'll note I'm definitely not in that position - I'm just someone who's kind of good at poking holes in the practical aspect of things.

Another good idea.  BDSM isn't something I'm really into, aside from the most basic "handcuffed to the bedposts" activity, but hopefully they wouldn't mind if I just hung around and took notes on how things are run.

Have you ever thrown a regular party or tried to drum up support for a brand new public social event?

Not in, let's see, about 17 years or so.

You may or may not care about this, but realistically speaking, any fetish party with more than a few guests is going to have some concerned with their employers or their children finding out about their sex lives. ... In the case of what you're thinking about, you've got security and secrecy and consent involved.

Yeah, my idea was to have the party at some sort of location in another city that no potential attendee is from.  I don't give much of a damn about secrecy myself, but I realize that, again, the rest of society regrettably disagrees with me.

This really isn't to throw a wet blanket over your fantasy.

I know, and I appreciate the help.

Though I am getting worried this is the kind of thing I may not even be able to successfully organize in my lifetime (in which case, there will be a very frustrated ghost going around trying to help my metaphorical "heirs" help their kinky dreams come true.)

[eselle28]

Why not?  Non-rhetorical question, I'm honestly trying to understand.  I certainly see the problem with them wanting to take part when they're on the job, but I don't see what's wrong with them having fun after the main party's over and they're off the clock.

The problem is that you have a very specific set of sexual boundaries, which you acknowledge most people won't share. A randomly selected handful of security personnel is highly unlikely to include any of the people who do, and may include people who really didn't want to work at this kind of assignment but who were unable to refuse it. As the organizer and as someone who's hired them for their security services, you shouldn't be hinting at them or watching them to see if they might be interested in an after party. You also should be watching your guests to yourself intervene if someone harasses your security. The fact that this seems like it's part of the fantasy for you means it's particularly important you draw a line here - these aren't consenting participants in the same way that party guests are, and the situation lends itself to really pushing boundaries.

Another good idea.  BDSM isn't something I'm really into, aside from the most basic "handcuffed to the bedposts" activity, but hopefully they wouldn't mind if I just hung around and took notes on how things are run.

Don't just go and take notes. Say hi. Talk to people. Maybe go to a munch. There are probably some people in that community who'd be interested in a grope party, and I think you'd be particularly likely to learn more if you talked about the issues in the context of something that doesn't hit your turn ons.

Yeah, my idea was to have the party at some sort of location in another city that no potential attendee is from.  I don't give much of a damn about secrecy myself, but I realize that, again, the rest of society regrettably disagrees with me.

Yeah, sorry for this, but I think that part probably needs to stay in fantasy land as well. People are unreliable when it comes up to showing up for local events thrown by people they know and care about. I think it's unlikely you'd be able to put together any reasonable number of people who are willing to travel to another city for an event thrown by someone they don't. Plus, the internet makes the world pretty non-local these days. Most people who want discretion opt for trust instead, and I think you'd do better to rely on that as well.

[Thanos6]

As the organizer and as someone who's hired them for their security services, you shouldn't be hinting at them or watching them to see if they might be interested in an after party.

Well, I was mainly just thinking of saying, when they took the job, "You'll be watching a lot of people do sexual things, and I can understand this may make you horny, but you can't participate.  But you could stay afterwards to play, if you want.  Or not, no pressure."  But if you think it would cause a big problem, I'll take your advice.

The fact that this seems like it's part of the fantasy for you means it's particularly important you draw a line here - these aren't consenting participants in the same way that party guests are, and lends itself to really pushing boundaries.

Actually, it's not, or at least, not in the sense of "sexually pleasuring my security officers gets me hot."  Mainly I'm just concerned that they have a way to vent their sexual urges.  Sort of an X-rated version of being nice to the wait staff.

Don't just go and take notes. Say hi. Talk to people. Maybe go to a munch.

Yeah, I didn't mean just lurking in a corner with a notebook like some kind of cliche anthropologist, heh.  Bad phrasing on my part.

Yeah, sorry for this, but I think that part probably needs to stay in fantasy land as well. ... Most people who want discretion opt for trust instead, and I think you'd do better to rely on that as well.

*sigh* This damned world.  Sometimes I wish I could just hop dimensions like in Sliders and end up in a world where there's no taboo or frowning on any consensual sexual activity, where it's just something you can do with no societal repurcussions.  "What do you want to do this weekend?  We could go rock-climbing, or play video games, or have an orgy?"

I know that in this world, I'm very unlikely to see that happen before I die, but I certainly hope it happens at some point.

[eselle28]

Well, I was mainly just thinking of saying, when they took the job, "You'll be watching a lot of people do sexual things, and I can understand this may make you horny, but you can't participate.  But you could stay afterwards to play, if you want.  Or not, no pressure."  But if you think it would cause a big problem, I'll take your advice.

Actually, it's not, or at least, not in the sense of "sexually pleasuring my security officers gets me hot."  Mainly I'm just concerned that they have a way to vent their sexual urges.  Sort of an X-rated version of being nice to the wait staff.

You absolutely cannot say that to someone you've hired under any circumstances, and if that's the sort of perspective you default to when thinking about how service workers would respond to sexual situations, you shouldn't hire service workers in any context where you'd be tempted to make that sort of suggestion.

The sort of line you're contemplating might be fine to say to someone who has voluntarily walked into a sex club but isn't a regular member. That person is there for their own enjoyment, and they can leave when they want to. A security guard is making shitty, probably not living wages to work at night or on weekends when they want to be at home with their own friends or family, and faces a great deal of pressure - at least to stay there and watch the sex party and worry that you'll make the same suggestion again when things are over. They can't tell you that instead of feeling horny, they feel disgusted or bored or annoyed or that they thought about quitting when they were told they had to show up for your party but can't because their rent's already past due. They have to stay there and be polite. I'm ranting because I have a shitty service sector job. It literally ruins my day when customers wait until I go to straighten something and ask for my phone number - not inviting me to a sexy after party, but just putting me in a position where I have to field their romantic desires politely and gently but firmly while also folding clothes and running a cash register and keeping an eye out for shoplifters and calculating if my paycheck this week is enough to cover the bills that absolutely have to be paid. It's all a hell of a lot more annoying than being hit on in a bar, where I can go hide in the bathroom or find another one to hang out at or roll my eyes at someone and walk away. My coworkers universally hate being hit on at work too. Your security guard will very likely hate being hit on, even in an oblique way. Don't do it.

 I get the sense you're trying to do the right thing, so I'm sorry for tearing into you a bit, but this stuff is pretty important if you have any aspiration toward making this fantasy a reality.

Sometimes I wish I could just hop dimensions like in Sliders and end up in a world where there's no taboo or frowning on any consensual sexual activity, where it's just something you can do with no societal repurcussions.  "What do you want to do this weekend?  We could go rock-climbing, or play video games, or have an orgy?"

Eh, not all of this is about societal repercussions. Part of what makes your fantasy tricky is that it requires at least a medium-sized group of people. It can be pretty damn tough to get five or six people together over the weekend to rock-climb, too, and unless you run a regular event group it might be close to impossible to round up twenty relative strangers. My town's Pokemon Go meetups are essentially that, and they end up being both small (especially the groups willing to get coffee or lunch beforehand) and a bit awkward. Organizing things is difficult.

(Oh, and going back to my rant, I wouldn't be interested in a random customer inviting me to rock climb or play video games together, either. I just want to do my job and go home!)

[Thanos6]

You absolutely cannot say that to someone you've hired under any circumstances, and if that's the sort of perspective you default to when thinking about how service workers would respond to sexual situations, you shouldn't hire service workers in any context where you'd be tempted to make that sort of suggestion.

Only in the sense of "these people are here working and are not having fun that everyone else is having.  Once their work is done, why shouldn't they have some of the same kind of fun?"  If I hosted, say, a wine-tasting party and hired security for it, then after everyone left I would invite the security people to stay and have some wine.  If I was an actor and hired security for a meet-and-greet, then once it was done I would invite the security people to stay and get some photos and autographs with me.  I don't see it any differently, but granted my views are at a sharp angle to the rest of society's.

They can't tell you that instead of feeling horny, they feel disgusted or bored or annoyed or that they thought about quitting when they were told they had to show up for your party but can't because their rent's already past due.

They can tell me whatever they like, but as long as they perform their job they'll still get paid; presence at the after-party would in no way be required.  *glumly* But I suppose that if there could even be appearance of impropriety, or I could be misinterpreted, I should avoid making the offer, huh?  Again, society sucks.

I'm ranting because I have a shitty service sector job.

Trust me, I know not to hit on anyone who's an employee of a business I'm patronizing.  There have been times where I've been fairly sure staff was truly flirting with me, but I didn't want to risk misinterpreting their "socially required friendliness" for "genuine interest", make myself look like an ass, and give them further annoyance, so I didn't try.

Your security guard will very likely hate being hit on, even in an oblique way. Don't do it.

Even though in my mind it's like offering a bonus... *pinches nose and mutters to myself* Not everyone is as sex-obsessed as me.  Not everyone is as sex-obsessed as me.  I wish they were, but they're not.

(Oh, and going back to my rant, I wouldn't be interested in a random customer inviting me to rock climb or play video games together, either. I just want to do my job and go home!)

I wouldn't offer either of those things to an employee who's helping me, either; I mean in a situation where you would offer any other activity for the possibility of mutual enjoyment, sex should be one of those options as well.  Like, meeting someone at a party, you make some light conversation, and then you invite them to golf or mountain biking or sex.  All of those should be equally socially acceptable.

That's the world I want to live in.  I know it's NOT, and I don't act like it IS, but it's what I WANT, and sometimes I get depressed as all Hell that I probably won't see it while alive.

[eselle28]

Even your platonic examples aren't very convincing to me. The best way to tip people is with money and the second best is with gifts sent in the mail or by messenger. Both your tip examples ask for others' time, in a way that makes it hard to say no. Many people can't or don't drink or have to report back at work sober after their shifts. Many people working with celebrities aren't fans. Sending a gift basket or a set of photos is good, and being nice and paying well is better. Not everyone's idea of fun is yours. That's not just you.

This is all a bit straying from the original topic, though. My advice would be not to involve anyone in this sort of event who's not there purely because they want to participate now or want to support it do they can participate later.

[Thanos6]

Fair enough; I suppose getting into the dynamics of what are and aren't acceptable ways to thank service staff are a bit off-topic for this thread.

I suppose for the first party I threw I could be the hands-off manager and just make sure things are going well, and have fun with a few friends after it's over, and once I know how to run things smoothly I could let someone else have a turn and I could dive right in.

Not everyone's idea of fun is yours.

Is it wrong that sometimes I wish it was?

[Enail]

I really second Eselle, on pretty much everything, but in particular that your best path towards making this happen is to get to know communities where less mainstream sex-related discussions and activities happen. Right now, it sounds like you don't know many people who would even be interested in being invited to such an event, let alone who you could trust to show up to a party and help you get it started and have your back on the rules; you haven't experienced situations similar to your fantasy to get a sense of how you and other participants might react in reality; you don't have a solid base on what the legal and logistical needs would really be to have a successful event, let alone a successful sex event; you don't know if there's a big enough pool of people in your area interested in your specific vision to make a good party on its own or if you'd do better to link it to an event with a more diverse set of interests. The more you talk about it, the more it sounds like it's a bigger project than you realize.

I do think this is something you can make happen, but you need to do some groundwork first. Start by spending time in spaces where similar events are discussed and happen, forming connections with people who might know where you're coming from or even share your interests, getting a sense of how the communities work. It sounds like a sense of community in a more sex-oriented group might be something valuable to you in and of itself, and it's possible that being part of one might give you opportunities to enact aspects of your fantasy without having to do all the event-planning.

And also, work on learning how to hold successful events; Eselle is super-right that it's more difficult than 'advertise, people show up!' And especially since it's an event you'd want to get to participate in rather than spend all your time making sure it's working smoothly.

And yeah, treat hired security staff as employees, because that's what they would be. Super-professional is the way to go here.

[reboot]

One option for the security is to pay people from the pool of potential attendees and have them on a rotation so they can participate in the party. Essentially paid volunteers. Obviously you would have to get to know people and know that you can trust them to follow the rules, but if you give them, say, $20 to work 2 hours after which they are free to join, you can avoid the pitfalls Eselle mentioned with paid security who are often not told what type of event they are being sent to and do not have a choice to opt out.

[Thanos6]

Now that sounds like a great idea!  Thanks.

[reboot]

Not sure why this got locked. Quite possibly it was my fat Hobbit fingers. Now revived